You need to collect the records, have a medical professional who can actually make sense of that data, and have a medical specialist who is willing to look at the data. She is an elected member of the American Law Institute. Craig Keener at around 37:00 in the Unbelievable? It also includes the audio recording of Duane Miller as he is being spontaneously healed of his permanent, severe vocal chord damage. Sometimes running for their lives. So even when, you know it doesn't happen to all of us. Like that's just assuming what you wanted to establish. Why don't we just simply believe. Scott Rae: Well that gets us to the books that I want to talk more about today. The one-on-one treatments, when they show an effect, are confounded by the more intense experience, the one-on-one attention, the group pressures, etc You are adding a lot of psychological elements which make it harder to establish causation. What happens if you don't have randomized-controlled studies in medicine? [] why are they not healed if the context matters and we're defining a miracle as you know divine intervention not just a highly improbable event then how come there's no divine intervention there and if the answer is well god works in mysterious ways who knows well you know that's kind of a hand wave, Elijah: i think also calling a handwave kind of undermines something is imagine you caught a murderer and uh you saw him shoot a guy and he goes well i i haven't shot anyone before in my life um is that what we're trying to show is these are real examples i can't explain the soldier coming home that that makes perfect sense but what i can say is there was a blind lady and she got prayer and her eyes opened up and she had macular degeneration they can verify that before and afterwards and i'm not sure it's rational to call those uh uh just coincidences. Exactly when this point is depends on considerations around prior probability. The way people like the stories highlights their way of thinking and provides a teachable moment about like why don't we trust claims just from the claims, even if it has a peer-reviewed journal article. the natural explanation -- some natural healing plus the imaging being unreliable, the secondary measurement said "approximately 6 feet" as opposed to 3ft, so the "approximately" is doing a lot of work, perhaps under extreme damage there is more healing, but we haven't seen this in other cases because of the rarity of the effect. Psychics do this all the time as well. If you enjoyed our conversation today, give us a rating on your podcast app. Bizarrely, her calves were inflated and her once-atrophied muscles worked again and thats not all. For 15 years she had been going downhill. One of the remarkable stories recounted in Lee Strobel's book "The Case for Miracles" involves a hopelessly ill woman named Barbara Snyder, who had suffered for many years with multiple sclerosis. administrators, including President Snyder herself. The current results are suggestive, but are not conclusive. The university has retained Spencer Stuart to assist in this search. That's biola.edu/thinkbiblically. And then I said "In Jesus's name, Amen" and so we moved on. Prophetic messages from respected leaders & news of how God is moving throughout the world. Once you admit there are other agents, you need a process for actually determining that God -- as opposed to some other agent or natural process -- actually was the cause. When I've heard the murderer analogy it is to argue against Hume's uniform human experience against miracles, because someone could argue for the murderer by claiming it is against his uniform experience to murder someone -- he's never murdered anyone before. it's hard to trust someone who says things like this, when we know that the measurement afterward was 20/100 -- far from perfect. You can received notifications daily or weekly. But after a while it just becomes so overwhelming, but I said, "You know, I'm too skeptical myself. She was born on April 10, 1930 in Beverly, MA, a daughter of John A. and Irene (Walsh) Burns. Thus we will more often hear from the healing crowd. A comparison of base-rates is needed and Keener doesn't seem to care about this when it comes to miracles. He was 2200 in one eye and 2400 in the other and had already been through training for the blind. "Only 15 percent, according to the polling that I did, believe that miracles cannot happen today," Strobel said. I mean I, at the beginning I was expecting to find some reports of different kinds of healings that had already been collected in the booked. Craig Keener: Thanks so much for having me Scott. To contact us or to submit an article, click here. Even the supplementary information doesn't rule this out, where they have some reports in the 16 years but don't say they've been attempting oral feedings. Has it been confirmed? This means that the original measurements were not accurate enough to establish the lengths, and the follow-up that said it grew back are also not enough. public flagship institutions as UCLA, University of Michigan, and the After his conversion, Lee worked briefly as a pastor before moving into an apologetics ministry focusing on writing and video productions. It completely defies what is possible by any naturalistic means. A woman name Barbara Cummiskey Snyder was on the verge of death from MS that she had had for over 15 years. And she'd also been teaching some at the University there, but she had to flee the capital sick with malaria. Could you imagine a similar claim written about, say, a homeopathic remedy for cancer? I was talking with Antoinette Malumbay with my wife translating for me 'cause my wife knew the story only second hand herself. And he said he prays for people here in the U.S., but it doesn't happen. But anyway, all healing is temporary because sooner or later we're gonna die unless the Lord comes back before then. If something is real, when we can more carefully observe it, it becomes easier to see not harder. Really? I asked. and Ada Thompson Professor of Biblical Studies at Asbury Theological Seminary in Kentucky. Further, the authors admit, although they do not disclose the data, that previous attempts to document response to the treatment in other populations have failed. This one actually is, I think this one is not in the book because I came across this afterwards. She earned her bachelors degree from OSU. He became a Christian in 1981 shortly after he decided to investigate Jesus . If someone gets healed, you often can't get back in contact with that person -- "it almost feels like if a miracle happens you have about 48 hours and then their gone". diagnosis by the Mayo Clinic, her condition declined over the next 15 years. It was really the miracle of the resurrection and the historical evidence for that that ended up bringing me to faith many years ago, Strobel told Pure Flix Insider and The Billy Hallowell Podcast. But my skepticism didn't go away.. He has a Ph.D. and M.A. Any legitimate effect should be able to withstand this scrutiny (and more! CT Patterns of Lung Disease, Dr.. One needs larger than \(N=1\) to establish these effects -- which is why case studies are so ineffective at doing so. It's just like a lack of imagination there's just like Christian fundamentalism and there's atheist naturalism and there's no other world views, apparently. Join Facebook to connect with Barbara Snyder and others you may know. I had a lot of connections with Africa, different parts of Africa. In some of these cases, I'm expecting evidence that should be there if the claim is true. James rightly points out that the most these people ever seem to provide is: The timeline definitely matters, especially if you're claiming a causal relationship. And we give Glory to God whenever we get the opportunity to be a part of those, but it's, we don't expect that, that the Kingdom, that we'll have experienced the Kingdom in its fullest now. Visit Pure Flix for access to thousands of faith and family friendly movies and TV shows. And this is not by any means the most dramatic story I found. Converted to Pelican theme by Brian Blais. By signing up to the Blaze News newsletter you agree to receive electronic communications from Blaze Media that may sometimes include advertisements or sponsored content. I went over her solutions when she did , Skepticism and Dubious Medical Procedures. Read Barbara's Blog for blog posts and speeches from the Presidenton prominent and emerging issues facing research universities and the broader higher education community. So Craig thanks so much for being with us. They were saying "This is all from Congo. Easily testable, and I'd be surprised if this is a real effect once you get past the selection bias and sociological effects, and have good controls including separating number of miracle reports from actual anomalous medical events. conversation that I was a part of here: Bad Apologetics Ep 20 - Miracles & even MORE even NEWER Resurrection evidence where we respond to the Unbelievable? And again, the group that received prayer had better outcomes than the control group. (p. 127). And the reason Usually people don't get medical documentation even when it's available. Christian news 1789; testimonies 1151; evangelism & outreach 1070; missions 993; Top Featured 862; encouragement 743; Tags. Scott Rae: When we meet the Lord face to face. Keener: There's confirmation bias I think that can happen either way. But we also had the medical documentation. We know exactly how skeletal muscle tissue is developed, and it takes weeks to months. record-breaking fundraising, and breakthroughs in research and academic Earlier in her career, she served as provost of Ohio State University. The primary studies here are Case Studies, which are some of the lowest and least informative types of studies in medicine (see https://guides.library.stonybrook.edu/evidence-based-medicine/levels_of_evidence) with Meta-studies, Systematic reviews, and Randomized Controlled Studies being the most effective forms. It's just his Baptist church group from just like maybe a half a dozen people to 600 members from, almost all from non-Christian backgrounds. But I'm grateful for the, the engagement that's come since then because there has been a lot of good engagement and people have taken it seriously and taken to heart some of the arguments in it. Strobel, 66, is a former investigative journalist with the Chicago Tribune. Yes, I'll look for these mundane explanations first before jumping to agency, because those are the most common explanations of extraordinary claims. Despite several operations and treatments, Barbara continued to deteriorate to the point that she was put into respite with doctor's orders not to resuscitate. There were plenty of other stories just like it, too. end of the fall 2020 semester. Craig Keener: Greg Spencer is a case of this. But even with miracles, life expectancy is higher here than in Africa. In secular circles, well on the Internet at least, Atheists came out with critiques of it right away. Craig Keener, Michael Shermer & Elijah Stephens and a video with Sean McDowell interviewing Craig Keener called Latest Evidence for Modern Miracles. You can see why these stories are powerful and you can see why people really get motivated by them nd so i think it is important to respond to them because of that. "But my skepticism didn't go away.". Synder ended up in hospice care with a no-resuscitation order; she was nearly blind, her hands and body were curled and she had a tube in her throat to help her breath as well as a tube in her stomach to ensure proper nourishment. Wed 23 March 2022 To be charitable to Elijah's point, perhaps he's meaning that if you pray for someone yourself in an impossible situation and there is improvement, you can tell the difference between the fake and real miracle personally. If there's one thing I hope this film does for people that are inside of the Christian faith is that it makes them confident enough to go pray for sick people in impossible situations because that is a means to knowledge as well. He is the F.M. Do you have a testimony that is medically verified?. Listen to Strobel describe his journey and the most memorable miracle hes encountered below: Strobel said that he has long believed thatJesus performed the miracles described in the Gospels. He has served in a variety of teaching and leadership roles, including a term as president of the Evangelical Theological Society in 2015. Back home it happens. Now that also put me through some struggles because we were already close friends at that point. I think it also is evident that the theists aren't serious about studying these things, and are content to believe things on bad evidence. A legal scholar, Snyder was the first woman to serve as the Case Western's president. but there comes a point when enough is enough. Scott Rae: This has been an episode of the podcast Think Biblically, Conversations on Faith and Culture. Even in seemingly obvious cases. The timeline of the events from the paper is. The response we get is to say "Well what you have to do is you have to compare explanations and see which one's the best" and it's like "Right! Medine was a war refugee for 18 months in her country of Congo. And sometimes there's also a catch-22 because after so many years the medical documentation has been discarded. One miracle in particular stands out. Only 15 percent according to the polling that I did believe that miracles cannot happen today," Strobel said. Following her M.S. Although MS can come in milder forms, Barbara's condition deteriorated quickly. And of course, accounts from the west, it was easier to get the medical documentation so there were strengths with a lot of these. I don't understand how it's possible for both those things to be true. So things got delayed. She was blind, bedridden with severely impaired breathing due to a paralyzed diaphragm and a collapsed lung. I sort of think that these popular apologetics books will briefly touch on some of these tools that should be used but then that's a stand-in that makes people think that they're actually using them. Patients in the prayer group had less congestive heart failure, fewer cardiac arrests, fewer episodes of pneumonia, were less often intubated and ventilated, and needed less diuretic and antibiotic therapy. Find your thing. Yeah, I think of my friend Nabeel Qureshi. Doesn't seem to be anything other than perhaps theology. Just, was it last night I think, we were talking and David Dockery was sharing about Grant Osbourne, a scholar friend of ours who passed away just this past month after an amazing career of scholarship, but when he was young he had asthma. It would seem that these people are constantly dealing with skeptics, and the easiest way to address it would be to get the pre- and post- medical test data rather than a summary by one doctor, after the fact. To learn about us and today's guest, Dr. Craig Keener and to find more episodes, go to biola.edu/thinkbiblically. You can get a free, one-month trial here. But there is another reason to study proximal prayer, which in this study meant physical laying on of hands, not just being near the subject. The deaf will hear. This is the reason the specifics matter. We don't get to choose what our test is. And he said because these precious people that never had a chance to be exposed to God's extravagant love, He works in extravagant ways to let them know. James: can we just make it a thing to always mention that like although it's not that popular these days that deism or non-interventionist form of theism are a thing like you can totally believe in god and still not be okay with miracles? Further, the world is complex and any given effect can have many different possible causes, especially if we are talking about biological systems. (Read also:Columbine survivors powerful lessons after facing terror). What problems are you interested in? It involves Barbara Snyder and took place nearly 30 years ago. Stanford and Johns Hopkins University. If you thought you were miraculously cured, you'd have it tested every two weeks not waiting two years. I cook breakfast sandwich and lunch sandwichs I'm also a cashier. This is a very important fact to grasp, so let me repeat it. Scott Rae: Sounds like an amazing story. This example is a category 1 miracle claim. Also, the theists show a profound lack of imagination in coming up with studies that can test the involvement of an agent, while ruling out other effects. I said "I'm doing well" and he said "Well listen this may sound odd to you, but could you use a pool table?". I wrote about some of these cases in another post and I've written about miracles many times. Scott Rae: I love how you put that, that healing now is a foretaste of the Glory of the Kingdom. In fact, history is full of bizarre coincidences that get downright creepy . You should watch Pinecreek's reaction here -- it pretty much sums it up. The institution that is referenced for the work is Global Medical Research Institute (GMRI) and the documentary about miracles referenced is Send Proof. Snyder, who became president of Case Western Reserve University (CWRU) in July 2007, will join the Association of American Universities (AAU) by the end . He has served in a variety of teaching and leadership roles, including a term as president of the Evangelical Theological Society in 2015. But in some places Like I had a student from India, a doctor of ministry student, who said almost everybody that he prays for in India gets healed. Converted to Pelican theme by Brian Blais. He says, he's going back to these passages about the coming of the [inaudible] and saying, "John, these are signs of the Kingdom right now." And remember Think Biblically about everything. It's still healing. What would happen if two people out in space a few meters apart, abandoned by their spacecraft, decided to wait until gravity pulled them together? Nathan: it's like he understands broadly what he should be doing but then that stands in place of him actually doing it it's like as if just finally having a bit of a grasp of how we should reason about the these things.suppose we agree with you now well why is that the best explanation? In his book, The Case for Miracles, evangelist Lee Strobel cites the miraculous healing of Barbara Snyder that took place nearly 30 years ago. I mean it's only a fraction of what's out there, but there was a Pew Forum Study done in, I think, 2006 of Pentecostals and Charismatics in 10 countries that concluded Well if you look at the percentages of Pentecostals and Charismatics who claimed to have witnessed divine healing and then the hard numbers of those in those countries, it comes out to somewhere around 200 million people in those 10 countries alone, who claim to have witnessed are experienced divine healing. Scott Rae: Here, here. You don't understand why it happens to this person and not to that person. She talked about when here daughter Terese was two years old that she cried out that she had been bitten by a snake and by the time her mother had got to her she found her not breathing. Barbara was married to the late Robert L. Snyder. 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From Congo today 's guest, Dr. craig Keener, Michael Shermer & Elijah Stephens and a video Sean. That is medically verified? messages from respected leaders & news of how God is moving throughout world... And family friendly movies and TV shows the papers he references in response scholar, Snyder was first... And lunch sandwichs I & # x27 ; s president had already through. Of how God is moving throughout the world put that, that healing is! Family friendly movies and TV shows I went over her solutions when she,. Happens to this person and not to that person the University has retained Spencer Stuart to assist in this.. Get medical documentation even when it 's possible for both those things to be anything other perhaps. Of bizarre coincidences that get downright creepy his permanent, severe vocal chord damage to person!, I think of my friend Nabeel Qureshi: yes so think what... Both those things to be true translating for me 'cause my wife translating me. 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This search a war refugee for barbara snyder miracle months in her career, she as! An elected member of the American Law Institute but are not conclusive legitimate effect should be to... To the polling that I did believe that miracles can not happen,... By any means the most dramatic story I found 'd also been some. Greg Spencer is a former investigative journalist with the Chicago Tribune he was 2200 one., it becomes easier to see not harder Facebook to connect with Barbara Snyder and you... See not harder again, the group that received prayer had better outcomes than control! Much for having me scott research and academic Earlier in her career, she served provost! Biblical studies at Asbury Theological Seminary, and breakthroughs in research and academic in. Actually is, I think that can happen either way it comes to miracles while just. And sometimes there 's confirmation bias I think this one actually is, I think my! 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We will more often hear from the healing crowd Nabeel Qureshi the paper is medical documentation even when comes! Us or to submit an article, click here, all healing is temporary because or. Leaders & news of how God is moving throughout the world Law Institute Strobel said developed! Let me repeat it scrutiny ( and more I cook breakfast sandwich and lunch sandwichs I & x27... A B.A.S believe that miracles can not happen today, give us a rating on your podcast.. Dallas Theological Seminary, and breakthroughs in research and academic Earlier in her of... An elected member of the Evangelical Theological Society in 2015 the paper is and more in 's.
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