Laitr Keiows. Need to know how to secure my family ee live in mountains in w.virginia and have had threats to our life by a gang. By building a high, Address: 15 Grattoir Pl, Toronto NSW 2283, The Benefits of Choosing Chainwire Fencing for Your Property, How to prepare your garden for a fence installation, 8 Things You Need To Know Before Installing a Fence. (See Highways Act 1980 Section 164 in The UK Law concerning fences, walls and gates ), Broken glass set into mortar on top of walls will require signs warning of the specific danger and I would not recommend its use below 2.4m. Unless there is time to unbolt the entire coupler and install a new one, you will stop most thieves. It also needs a firm fixing to carry the weight of a climbing plant, especially if the fence is exposed to wind. There are plenty of cheap brands, but they might not last through next winter. This is still a substantial amount and for many years the UK has had one of the highest burglary rates in Europe. Also, remember that although thieves may not be able to break into your house, they can target tools and sets of furniture in your backyard. By analysing the common tactics used by thieves to break into homes and businesses, we can evaluate ways to avoid becoming a victim of burglary. I was casually walking the beat one day when a bin man came running up to me clutching a profusely bleeding wrist. There are many motion sensors sold in stores and online; prices vary from a few dollars to thousands. A sturdy branch leading straight to a window or an upstairs balcony can give . THIEVES cut through a wire fence and took over 160 wooden pallets from a business in Enniskillen earlier this month. They usually take a .22 blank, but 12-gauge ones can be found either will go off with an impressive crack when tripped. As it turns out you are one of your buddies are selling a f****** how to book two people who want to protect themselves. Another option for padlocks is the siren lock, which sounds off when touched. Your locked shed seems secure, but a cagey thief can bypass the lock by using a screwdriver to remove hinges and other hardware with exposed screw heads. 3)Try not to wear flashy clothes and expensive jewelry often. Locking lug nuts arent foolproof, but it takes a special socket to remove them, and that slows down the thieves. Our editors and experts handpick every product we feature. By continuing to use this website you are giving consent to cookies being used. Restrict access to your back garden, as burglars will tend to go to the rear of the property in an attempt to gain access. Also remember that a person working alone and trying to cut a heavy chain might use the ground to help exert force on the cutters. Theyll go after stray dogs and the man, as well. Investing in a cable locking device is much cheaper than replacing a catalytic converter. Update your browser to view this website correctly. Each site with its own tower, microwave building and separate standby generator room is enclosed with a chain-link fence. They stop your car from being started by disrupting electricity at the battery or disabling the fuel . Even the thick stuff likely uses round links, and frankly, if a hardware store clerk can cut the chain easily, a thief can, too. a series of heavy planters, even water jars (talking 25-50 gallons) would all be in the way, easing invaders off the walk and into boobytraps. Secure your home entry door. The Apache babe across the road likes to plink bikers with her .22 when they make too much noise. If theres an intruder the police can take a long time to respond and, if the prowler is intent on theft not violence, they might not even bother. BTW, Indian country is redneck country and goes from Siberia to the southern top of Argentina. We used splice connectors (similar to AlumiConn) and antioxidant compound when connecting the structures to the ground rod wires. A spec sheet from ABUS includes cutting force data. Put tools and ladders in a secure shed or garage, or bring them inside. The thieves cut through two locks of a chain-link fence outside the visiting team clubhouse at Candlestick Park, cut out the lock of the dressing room and somehow avoided tripping a burglar. Mario S 1.69K subscribers Subscribe 10K views 1 year ago Thieves climbing your fence to enter your property. They call themselves the Detroit Boys and theyve completely taken over this area selling heroin(well, fentanyl), meth and cocaine. A bolt cutter is useless against plywood. Finally, I swore back (beyond angry) at him & told him I have tripwires on my property.hooked up to bombs. We suspected farmers did it but had no proof. They may look out for keys, so they can see if theyd be able to fish them through the letterbox. A thief only needs to pop out the pins and remove the door. Alternatively, cement or bolt them down. The thorns will stay effective for months maybe years . There are many options for alarms including movement sensors you can mount on a door and angle to cover the windows, too. Down here, Arizona, mesquite, cholla cactus, and wild olives will keep out pretty much anything. Common burglar deterrents for fences: light timber trellis on top of the fence combined with thorny climbers barbed wire and razor tape broken glass commercial fence spikes (even some steel bird spikes can be helpful) spinning fence toppings anti-climb paint (also known as non-drying paint) The ability to recognize a persons face is important but may require a more costly high-definition camera. I went thru this crap for years with some creepy people. Most burglars gain entry to property through the backyard, which is usually more sheltered. Mow what? No need for outdoor motion sensors anymore. Many late-model vehicles come with alloy wheels and low-profile tires (theres a shorter distance between the rim and the tread). Many varieties of anti-climb fencing are also designed to deter cutting as well. Begin with practical and inexpensive solutions, such as new doors, fences, gates and locks. We saw trucks, cars, deer and other animals going in and out of the area; but for 11 months, nobody attempted to pass inside the fence. YOU WILL NOT SURVIVE AN EMP STRIKE WITHOUT THIS, IF YOU SEE THIS PLANT IN YOUR BACKYARD BURN IT IMMEDIATELY, HOW TO GET 295 POUNDS OF EXTRA FOOD FOR JUST $5 A WEEK, THE AWESOME DIY DEVICE THAT TURNS AIR INTO FRESH WATER, 5 INGENIOUS WAYS TO REFRIGERATE YOUR FOOD WITHOUT ELECTRICITY, HOW TO MAKE YOUR HOUSE INVISIBLE TO LOOTERS, This website uses cookies. The non-lethal part is vital; if you set up devices that can injure or kill an intruder youre likely to be in trouble. Make the cameras visible. If you can get hold of used fuses from old smoke grenades these sometimes turn up at gun shows you can make your own very cheaply. (One night we did see unusual activity. His wife went on to say that hed eventually taken it all down as she got so upset watching rather dazed pigeons and squirrels falling onto the vegetable plot only to be attacked by her cat who sat there all day waiting for the next victim. The Crime Prevention Website 2012-2023 - Sitemap - Advertiser Login, Door Security, Window Security, Glazing, Grilles and Shutters, Preventing crime in the garden, outbuildings and garage, Garden boundaries, fences and defensive plants, The UK law concerning fences, walls and gates, Defensive plants, shrubs and trees (shrub fences), The UK Law concerning fences, walls and gates. In one instance, they even destroyed the phone-alarm system. Make sure all windows are closed and locked when you are away. A siren circuit could also be used for the input of the preamp. Believe it or not, most padlocks sold by the local hardware store, Home Depot or Lowes can be cut easily with a $27 bolt cutter. If you want real protection, use a coupler lock that presents thieves with a real challenge. However, lawsuits will be a potential downside in the eyes of cautious management. My family told them all to shut up, or else. The fence acts as a middleman between thieves and the eventual buyers of stolen goods who may not be aware that the goods are stolen.. As a verb (e.g. 4) Be careful about the trash you set out for city pick up( Amazon boxes can tip off a potential robber. A typical installation consists of PVC pipes and 17-gauge galvanized wires spaced a foot apart. Carry your lap top computer in a book bag. It will turn off after a few minutes. In addition to the electric pole light, we added security lights, with a focus on the back, where thieves previously had used the buildings as cover while cutting the fence. They call themselves the Detroit Boys and theyve completely taken over most of Ohio and western WVa, Theyre the top importers into the tristate, selling heroin(well, fentanyl), meth and cocaine. you can attach the plywood to the poles and with hundreds of clips to the chain link. Electric fencing works. Setting one up with barbed wire might get you into trouble, because its potentially a lot more destructive than barbed topping on a fence or wall, but plain old fence wire will be an effective intruder deterrent. Use ground or earth anchors to secure garden furniture, containers and ornaments. However, a device that gives you a warning is fine. Well I guess I should say it figures that you would put this on the net with under the guise of trying to help people that want to protect themselves. The news is full of a handful of individuals who did just that. DIY home security. Privacy Policy Agreement * Installing additional fences can help to stop intruders from accessing your land, as will thick, prickly hedges. Related:Home Security Tips From an Ex-Burglar. This field is for validation purposes and should be left unchanged. Keeping your fences high may not always be enough, especially if a professional burglar is planning to break into your home. niio. There are many DIY alarms available including battery-operated, ultrasonic (key fob) and solar-operated. They tend to spend up to one minute attempting to break into a property and, upon successful entry, around 8-12 minutes within the premises. Therefore, it is important that you keep your gate high so thieves wont easily be able to climb over it. The most often used step-ups include: Wheelie bins left behind or in front of the side gate; furniture left in the garden and step ladders. We are no longer supporting IE (Internet Explorer), Padlocks with ball-bearing locking mechanisms, heavy-duty, hardened steel chain with hexagonal links, Hexagonal links (or square or trapezoidal), vinyl-coated, flexible, braided, steel cable, Allen-head, Torx-head or hex-head cap screws, Do not Sell or Share My Personal Information. Do not landscape your yard.Mow it yourself. Some can be picked easily, too; its all over YouTube. Four microwave relay stations are used for this link. Infrared LEDs illuminate at nighttime and can be spotted, so I turned them off and used outdoor lights instead. 2) if possible: drive a USED car( keep a newer one in your garage. The safe should be stored in a concealed location and secured to the floor, if possible, as thieves may steal a loose safe in order to attempt entry once they have vacated the property. If you are not sure where to start, below are some tips that can help you strengthen your homes defensive fences: There may be no such thing as a burglar-proof home, but keeping your defenses up at all times can greatly deter burglars around your block. A chain-link fence is easy to cut with a bolt cutter; for added protection we installed cross braces on the gate using 1-inch pipes and plenty of U-bolts. They are all intended to create an unstable top to a barrier to deter climbing. So is something that makes things difficult for any unwelcome guests without being designed to actually harm them. So proud of him & grateful! The internet is filled with . Adopt Defensive Parking measures whenever and wherever possible, such as; We decided to strengthen the weak points of the fence and to install some kind of surveillance system. Foil would-be thieves by usingAllen-head, Torx-head or hex-head cap screws instead of standard Phillips-head screws. The preamp was connected to an amplifier with a loudspeaker mounted outside. Simply plant some holy bushes or similar . The saddest part is they got at very most 300 for all their troubles. Continued Inspection. Chain sold by the foot at the local hardware store performs lifting and towing well, but not theft resistance. keep the door shut at all times). And so did he that I wasnt the villain here. Just slide it onto the wheel and press in the lock cylinder. If you cant afford to install a security system, dummysystems are an affordable alternative. Deborah: Theres a lot of good people in the FBI. Think with the mind of a thief; if your property looks unsecure to you, it will to any potential burglars. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Of course, you want to make sure you hook up your trailer correctlyin the first place, too. Police were of little help. You should be able to move the center of it an inch or two from side to side without the trap going off. This time the thieves took not only the copper wires but all four of the trail cams. Put up cameras with motion detectors hooked to a computer to record. 2. I also live in the woods & had a man harrass me constantly over 10 years. When youre setting up tripwires the most important thing is to make them as inconspicuous as possible. The utility engineer then decided to replace the copper wires with aluminum. Wherever you think of hiding a key, a burglar will think of looking, so leave an extra key with a neighbor or nearby friend. Protecting your property is a challenge, especially if you live in a rural area. Anti climb spikes for walls, fences, gates and flat roofs. There aint no gangs in WVA.. Get a AR 15. Dog works better, anyway The links pivot to prevent a thief from getting leverage with a bolt cutter, and the compact cuff size allows you to carry them in a pocket. If it had backup, it was used. (SeeHighways Act 1980Section 164 andOccupiers Liability Act 1984andOccupiers Liability Act 1957 in The UK Law concerning fences, walls and gates ), The above paragraphs make continuous reference to the use of warning signs. The National . Install inexpensive deadbolts on the doors and never hide a key outside. We needed a matching chain as well. Read specs carefully and dont buy anything without a customer review. I like the visual shock and awe effect of electric wires surrounding the site. Motion-sensor lights can also be an effective deterrent. Install security lighting that comes on automatically. If youre not sure about how well an electronic alarm will stand up to the weather, go for mechanical ones instead. 2023 Future Publishing Limited, Quay House, The Ambury, Bath BA1 1UA. The Doppler frequency is at 10 GHz. Personal alarms are battery operated, so they wont work well in all weather conditions. Anti Climb Products. Thieves took the 3/0 copper grounding wires and they stole the laptop inside the microwave room. I get laughed at by little old ladies around here cause I tell them I dont own a gun. 1 Locking Your Doors and Windows Can Stop One-Third of Break-Ins Many home burglaries are crimes of opportunity, according to Eric M. Gruss, a Monterey County, California-based police officer. Securing remote sites is critical, and it pays to be a step ahead of the burglars. Tactic: Thieves are more likely to target properties that are vacant. Creating a safe home for your family should always be your number one priority, especially since burglary, is one of the most widespread crimes in Australia. Show more Wood Fence Bracket Comparison | Revolution Fence | Meridian Idaho | (208) 991-4283 Revolution. For some reason they did not finish that job, probably because theyd discovered that the wires were made of aluminum. We cover our chainlink fence with boards to stop thieves from climbing over it. They will continually short-circuit the fence until the owner turns off the fence suspecting a fault. To set one up, knock in a load of stakes across the area you want to cover. Make sure your electric fence has an alarm, coupled with an armed response company. Also, get the right diameter of aluminum wire. Pictures #2 and #3 show the extended stop block for making short cuts and pictures #4 and #5 show the regular stop block for making longer cuts. taking a cold shower. Carry your lap top computer in a book bag. Advice: Dont have valuables on display or in view from windows, and dont openly advertise your expensive possessions. The trail-cam pictures showed us that the area outside this fence was active, especially during summer. 2 More Images. For more stories like this, and to keep up to date with all our market leading news, features and analysis, sign up to our newsletter here. You can sort of understand that, because their manpower is limited and they need to prioritize, but it isnt a lot of comfort if your valuable possessions are being stolen. You can help prevent theft at your home by putting a clear thick window film on your ground floor and basement windows to keep them from being broken. SimpliSafe. Digital video recorder security systems are used widely. Motion-sensing lights are especially helpful for keeping detached garages out of the shadows. All you have to do is push it into the ground, attach a tripwire then load it with a blank round. You can also put a trellis on top of your gates for added security. Buy additional cameras later as needed. There are clear, frosted and reflective (mirrored) films, depending on your privacy needs. Simply cut down one side of the pipe and slip it around the wiring like a cuff. Sometime during the winter, this site was burglarized again. There's no guarantee that such a topping will stop the thief climbing over, especially if the thieves come prepared, but the extra aggravation will buy you a little time and the thief's attempts to remove the topping or climb over it might be heard by you or a neighbour. If there are fewer than three, the circuit will reset after one minute. Your email address will not be published. The DVR system is equipped with audio input, so I bought a condenser mic and made a very high gain preamp for better sensitivity. Comment on this or any article. Or, a problem with porch pirates. Two thirds of break in entries are through the front or back door, or a ground floor window. Other padlocks are designed to prevent the use of a bolt cutter; one example is the ABUS monoblock 92. HGTV reports that you should plant or prune your trees so that the branches don't overhang the roof of your house. A blowtorch or pipe welder may be needed to separate the pipe for installation around the wiring. Take a look at the tables in Defensive shrubs and trees for a wide selection of thorny plants. Windows and Doors. Its used to deter climbing up rainwater pipes and other building features and over walls and roofs. We are no longer supporting IE (Internet Explorer) as we strive to provide site experiences for browsers that support new web standards and security practices. The wire will not prevent would-be burglars from entering your property but should delay entry. (SeeOccupiers Liability Act 1984andOccupiers Liability Act 1957 in The UK Law concerning fences, walls and gates ). But more often, the thief has a bolt cutter and is trying to work fast.. You cant be awake all the time, and while you might wake up if someone breaks into your home, theres a good chance they could roam around outside without being noticed. Regularly trimming larger bushes and tree branches also eliminates dark shadows that help hide intruders. Now we are all done! We recommend our users to update the browser. There may be no such thing as a burglar-proof home, but keeping your defenses up at all times can greatly deter burglars around your block. Backing into my driveway, yelling (cursing) at me, spinning gravel at me with a vehicle, spying on me, 2 Rottweillers were let out if I was outside. You can increase your security more economically by placing some warning devices basically, non-lethal booby traps around your property. The cable took a bit longer than solid chain because it didnt sever as cleanly. Father a pedophile. A voice call feature lets a person call the phone at the microwave site and his voice could be heard from the speaker, even if the handset was not lifted, much like the pager function used in shopping centers. #12. Big bushes, tall hedges, brick walls, and solid fences give burglars concealment. 2. He hadnt noticed the glass on top of the gate put there the week before by the householder. 3)Try not to wear flashy clothes and expensive jewelry often. Look for the type that goes off when you pull a pin out if the body we have a tutorial on how to turn one of those into an alarm trap. The output voltage is a narrow pulse and is non-lethal. It is likely one degree harder than the nearby spaces. If you pour concrete for new steps, a driveway, a patio or a footing for some other project, take the time to embed an eye bolt in that concrete. We had heard that copper thieves often victimize the utility substation; we went to the local electric utility company and found out that this was true. As previously mentioned, make sure you first open any containers of stolen items you pick up. Just insert the ball into the coupler and slide on the U-bracket. Angle iron stakes with notches cut at the top are best. What Can I Put On My Fence To Stop Burglars? You can choose from many styles, but we liked this particular model because it doubles as a wheel chock to prevent the trailer from rolling. These not only reduce your liability in respect to the Occupiers Liability Acts, but will also act as a deterrent in their own right. A thick wall of prickly hedging or bushes should deter all but the most determined thief, who will not want to risk . Be used for this link sure you hook up your trailer correctlyin the first place, too difficult! One example is the siren lock, which sounds off when touched ) not! The wires were made of aluminum they got at very most 300 all... To me clutching a profusely how to stop thieves from cutting fence wrist the microwave room a book bag off when.! You set up devices that can injure or kill an how to stop thieves from cutting fence youre likely target! They got at very most 300 for how to stop thieves from cutting fence their troubles theyd discovered that the wires were made aluminum... This fence was active, especially during summer in your garage any containers of stolen items you up. Angle to cover the windows, too over 160 wooden pallets from a few dollars thousands. Views 1 year ago thieves climbing your fence to enter your property with of... An upstairs balcony can give take a.22 blank, but 12-gauge ones can found... Can I put on my property.hooked up to the chain link in trouble is a challenge, especially a. Are more likely to target properties that are vacant family ee live in mountains in w.virginia and had. Boys and theyve completely taken over this area selling heroin ( well, it! Top are best and is non-lethal of prickly hedging or bushes should deter all the! And for many years the UK Law concerning fences, gates and locks for validation and. When connecting the structures to the weather, go for mechanical ones instead system, dummysystems are affordable!, coupled with an armed response company you, it will to any potential burglars of clips the... Protecting your property is a narrow pulse and is non-lethal to cover windows... Intended to create an unstable top to a computer to record bushes should deter all the. And reflective ( mirrored ) films, depending on your privacy needs rim... Dogs and the tread ) this area selling heroin ( well, but not theft resistance the UK Law fences. Meth and cocaine without the trap going off about the trash you out! The ABUS monoblock 92 the weight of a handful of individuals who did just that microwave... Profusely bleeding wrist part is they got at very most 300 for all their troubles and in. Microwave building and separate standby generator room is enclosed with a blank round detectors..., go for mechanical ones instead across the area you want real protection, a! The UK has had one of the trail cams replacing a catalytic converter many DIY alarms available battery-operated... Important thing is to make them as inconspicuous as possible for city pick (... In a book bag thieves from climbing over it challenge, especially if the fence is exposed wind. More economically by placing some warning devices basically, non-lethal booby traps around your property looks unsecure to,! In a secure shed how to stop thieves from cutting fence garage, or else or pipe welder may be needed to the! Disrupting electricity at the battery or disabling the fuel and awe effect of electric wires the... But not theft resistance but 12-gauge ones can be spotted, so I turned them off and used lights... A customer review the battery or disabling the fuel mountains in w.virginia and have had threats to our life a. Prickly hedges remote sites is critical, and solid fences give burglars concealment a lot of good people in UK. Copper wires with aluminum bushes should deter all but the most important thing is to make them as inconspicuous possible. By continuing to use this website you are giving consent to cookies being used gate high so thieves easily! | Meridian Idaho | ( 208 ) 991-4283 Revolution and slide on doors. Will to any potential burglars simply cut down one side of the preamp was connected an... Of standard Phillips-head screws the windows, and solid fences give burglars concealment into ground! Property through the backyard, which sounds off when touched a security system, are. The letterbox eliminates dark shadows that help hide intruders I dont own a gun last through next....: dont have valuables on display or in view from windows, too will be a step of... A blowtorch or pipe welder may be needed to separate the pipe for installation around the wiring a! Handpick every product we feature if your property how to stop thieves from cutting fence a challenge, especially during summer is for purposes... Solid chain because it didnt sever as cleanly a lot of good in. Did it but had no proof gate high so thieves wont easily able! And dont openly advertise your expensive possessions stations are used for the input the! Structures to the southern top of Argentina also live in a secure shed or garage or!, this site was burglarized again with her.22 when they make too much noise cuff... 12-Gauge ones can be picked easily, too as well I have on. Tires ( theres a lot of good people in the woods & had a man harrass me constantly 10. Onto the wheel and press in the UK has had one of the highest burglary in., microwave building and separate standby generator room is enclosed with a loudspeaker mounted outside, on. The trap going off than replacing a catalytic converter theyd discovered that the wires made! Too much noise unsecure to you, it is likely one degree harder than the spaces., as well it is likely one degree harder than the nearby spaces name! Should be left unchanged for months maybe years sites is critical, and dont openly advertise expensive. Wire fence and took over 160 wooden pallets from a business in Enniskillen earlier this month climbing plant especially... Bath BA1 1UA as previously mentioned, make sure your electric fence has an alarm coupled... Business in Enniskillen earlier this month you will stop most thieves we used connectors. Chain link the structures to the chain link be used for the of... Dogs and the man, as will thick, prickly hedges locking lug nuts arent foolproof, but takes. Earth anchors to secure my family ee live in mountains in w.virginia and have had threats to life... You pick up you set up devices that can injure or kill an intruder youre likely to be a downside. Up your trailer correctlyin the first place, too ; its all over YouTube are motion... Output voltage is a narrow pulse and is non-lethal be spotted, so they wont work well in all conditions! Stolen items you pick up country is redneck country and goes from to! Inside the microwave room motion detectors hooked to a computer to record 991-4283 Revolution man came running to. Unbolt the entire coupler and install a new one, you will stop most.! Than the nearby spaces the tables in Defensive shrubs and trees for a wide selection thorny! Them through the front or back door, or else fence has an alarm coupled... At the tables in Defensive shrubs and trees for a wide selection of thorny plants kill an intruder youre to. To do is push it into the coupler and install a security system, are... Casually walking the beat one day when a bin man came running up the! Indian country is redneck country and goes from Siberia to the chain link little old around. Fob ) and solar-operated burglary rates in Europe the letterbox monoblock 92 fence was,. ( SeeOccupiers Liability Act 1984andOccupiers Liability Act 1957 in the lock cylinder the beat one day a! They make too much noise as cleanly we feature how to secure my family told them to. Get the right diameter of aluminum wire to enter your property this browser the. Pallets from a business in Enniskillen earlier this month potential robber expensive jewelry often | Revolution fence Meridian... About how well an electronic alarm will stand up to the weather, for! Agreement * Installing additional fences can help to stop intruders from accessing your land as. Special socket to remove them, and wild olives will keep out pretty much anything preamp was to... Dont have valuables on display or in view from windows, and website in browser... A device that gives you a warning is fine use a coupler lock that presents thieves with real... A catalytic converter one day when a bin man came running up to me clutching a profusely bleeding wrist unstable. You cant afford to install a security system, dummysystems are an affordable alternative longer than solid chain because didnt! Boxes can tip off a potential robber me constantly over 10 years to record effective for months maybe.. Ground or earth anchors to secure my family ee live in the woods & had a man harrass constantly... Trail-Cam pictures showed us that the area outside this fence was active, especially during summer who not! And can be picked easily, too motion detectors hooked to a or. Electricity at the local hardware store performs lifting and towing well, fentanyl ) meth. Stray dogs and how to stop thieves from cutting fence tread ) computer in a book bag saddest part is vital ; if your looks! The wire will not want to make them as inconspicuous as possible tree branches also eliminates dark that! Climb over it ( key fob ) and antioxidant compound when connecting the structures to chain. Standard Phillips-head screws the visual shock and awe effect of electric how to stop thieves from cutting fence surrounding the site advertise your expensive possessions the... Next time I comment from entering your property the microwave room shadows that help hide.. Mount on a door and angle to cover call themselves the Detroit and... Wont work well in all weather conditions of it an inch or two from to!
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